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War Room Overhauling.
09-17-2016, 09:01 PM
Post: #31
RE: War Room Overhauling.
@Tameshi
First of, Aka Ryu has forums, so we can use those, I can PM the link to the Leaders, whom can pick spme members to join them in the meeting.

I can also create another forum if neccessary.

I personnally think we should pick a day in which we can have access in the meeting a lot, so maybe during te weekend?

Aka Ryu is willing to have a peace treaty until the end of the meeting

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09-18-2016, 01:28 AM
Post: #32
RE: War Room Overhauling.
(09-17-2016 12:17 PM)Kogane no kiba burūdoragon Wrote:  There was no hatred involved in this war nor has there been any to grow among the Aoi Hoiru ranks. This was simply a business arrangement. feelings, at least on my part, never entered into the equation when the decision was made to go to war. Sure there was some funny business going on in the beginning that made me go blind with rage for a minute or several but for the most part this has been a hatred free war.

The hate you speak of was used during the 4th Great War to spur the troops into great action and once expended by the majority of the clan it found no tinder to bloom into a flame with. Any derogatory comments towards Hono in this conflict has either been made by Noobs who do not know better or your standard trolls.

You can have small contained conflict between clans as long as the right people are in the driver's seat

You misunderstand. (And there is 100% hate this war. See, Me vs Aloshka, Me Vs. Tameshi, Yuuta vs Tameshi, Tsukeyomi vs Tameshi, and including the drama from the beginning of the war, and for the record, i don't believe all of this 'funny business' has stopped either)

The point is, of course we ca have a small contained conflict, but that's bad for the game. We want conflicts to be large an open, that way, everyone is involved, everyone has input, and everyone has something to do. More people involved throwing shots in different directions offers more diverse battles, and less options to get angry. Because everyone is attacking, not just one or two clans.

(09-17-2016 06:25 PM)Tameshi Wrote:  Since we have been discussing a few things here allready,i would be interested to know when the meeting will happen that we talked about.
If we discuss too many things here,there might not be much to talk about in the meeting later.

We should find out the main points that are relevant for the meeting,who wants to take part in it,and when it will happen.
It was allready mentioned before that it should happen in the forum,so we allready know the location(unless someone would prefer to have this meeting ingame,instead of the forum).

Ummm... i was under the impression this WAS the meeting. That's why i sent out the message to all the leaders...

I don't think there's any need to move it from here. That's why i wrote the rules out i had planned in the forum, and did everything here. I've just been waiting to hear from Ak90 and Chronos.

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09-18-2016, 03:40 AM (This post was last modified: 09-18-2016 03:41 AM by Kogane no kiba burūdoragon.)
Post: #33
RE: War Room Overhauling.
(09-18-2016 01:28 AM)Thylakaleo Wrote:  
(09-17-2016 12:17 PM)Kogane no kiba burūdoragon Wrote:  There was no hatred involved in this war nor has there been any to grow among the Aoi Hoiru ranks. This was simply a business arrangement. feelings, at least on my part, never entered into the equation when the decision was made to go to war. Sure there was some funny business going on in the beginning that made me go blind with rage for a minute or several but for the most part this has been a hatred free war.

The hate you speak of was used during the 4th Great War to spur the troops into great action and once expended by the majority of the clan it found no tinder to bloom into a flame with. Any derogatory comments towards Hono in this conflict has either been made by Noobs who do not know better or your standard trolls.

You can have small contained conflict between clans as long as the right people are in the driver's seat

You misunderstand. (And there is 100% hate this war. See, Me vs Aloshka, Me Vs. Tameshi, Yuuta vs Tameshi, Tsukeyomi vs Tameshi, and including the drama from the beginning of the war, and for the record, i don't believe all of this 'funny business' has stopped either)

The point is, of course we ca have a small contained conflict, but that's bad for the game. We want conflicts to be large an open, that way, everyone is involved, everyone has input, and everyone has something to do. More people involved throwing shots in different directions offers more diverse battles, and less options to get angry. Because everyone is attacking, not just one or two clans.

Hatred between one or two individuals is nothing compared to the overwhelming hatred of two clans going at it. there has been no flaming overall in this war.

And we disagree on the scale of conflicts I do not want them to be large and open. I do not care for everyone to be involved within a conflict that does not concern them. I do not care for diverse battles with a myriad of opponents unless it is a battle royal like we had before in one sector. I prefer to focus on one enemy until the end and then move on to another target.

@Bagda,
we have not agreed to this "new" system within the war room. Until AK90 has voiced his opinion Aoi's position is neither for or against.

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09-18-2016, 05:56 AM
Post: #34
RE: War Room Overhauling.
im against it until war end too... and thy i really appraise that u are trying for better war room "everybody attacks everybody"... but dont bade ur self only one who will be attacked... maybe this system is better for newbies, but not really for that ones who really understand how war room works and who cares about their clans, we some of leaders are not sleeping cause moves cause we may lost everything in it... there was one quote about what i was considering with ak90:

"The Gods envy us.
They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed.
You will never be lovelier than you are now.
We will never be here again.”

its really like war room, if we wont have anything to lose anymore, we will lost our motivation in war room, we'll get lets say like ""gods"" in that case... when i meant lets try it - i meant try when we wont have anything to do, try when war room will inactive.. lel

and its not really cause u attacked bl, just marked(designated) on what mind i was
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09-18-2016, 06:14 AM (This post was last modified: 09-18-2016 06:28 AM by aloshka.)
Post: #35
RE: War Room Overhauling.
Well, Aka and Ki have a problem now. Sooner or later there will be a peace between Hono and Aoi+Midori. Assuming it will be sth cheesy for Hono to fight with Aoi and Midori just after that in short period of time, then Hono:
- became oasis of peacefulnees
or
- they will pick another target. Tadaam!

Considering Midori lost 95% of what there was to lost + the fact there is constant fluctuation of power + the fact that Aka and Ki turned Midori off against them in fact eternally, then I predict hard future for you guys. Moreover, especially Aka gave a lot of reasons to Aoi to back them in potential future conflict, lol. (sarcasm of course)

Sure, Aka and Hono have unofficial alliance, but read some real life history and SHSD War Room history of various alliances/good relations* and analyse what happened when given promise were in conflict with raw bussiness and dreams of specific clan.

I think Chronos played it that good, that it caused me a *smirk* reaction.

The major strategical aim was to break Aoi-Ki power and diplomatic domination in War Room. Especially Aoi's as Aoi is not only stronger, but also had Blood Lotus and Murakami guarantees. While Aoi is/was theoretically backed by Ki+Mura+Bl, then Ki is/was backed only by Aoi.

Chronos managed to break solidarity between them 1) dragging Ki out of this, playing on their Midori's resentments, 2) dragging BL on his side (while BL think they are double agents and live in belief that Chronos and Ak90 don't know about it); 3) scrapped entirely Murakami factor by donations and by the fact: Hono attacked Midori->that's why Aoi attacked Hono-> Mura was legally allowed to stay out of this conflict as Aoi-Mura deal was only a defensive pact (and there are many more nuances that I'm not allowed to publish and there's no need to).

Hono attacked Midori as Midori received ultimatum from Hono: "you're with us or against us". Considering Midori still felt grudge for separate peace that Hono made during 4th Great War + considering the fact Midori risked their neck in Aoi's relations due to loyalty for Hono, then Midori refused.

So that's the first reason why Midori was first Hono's target. Chronos also calculated well that Aoi won't be able to allow for this as he rates our intelligence high enough to be aware we will see the bigger picture. Midori called Aoi for help and it was given. Which means Mura factor was scrapped, Ki was outplayed (by Chronos) by Midori's-blind-hatred-no-jutsu-and-resentments and BL were blackmailed and later bought.

Though it doesn't mean that Chronos solved all of his problems:
1) Aoi-Ki alliance formally still exists;
2) current Midori gained resentments over 9000 not only against Ki and Aka, but also against Hono.

So that's what the political game is about now: to reset whole diplomatic system, create sth like Leaugue of Nations/United Nations in which Hono would have leading role and softly enact their targets one by one + win every fights that will occur during single-tile-events.
+
Do sth with Midori. To be more specific: overthrown Tameshi as a leader of Midori. That's why we hear slogans like:
- Tameshi is incompetent;
- Tameshi is destroying the game;
- Tameshi doesn't want to cooperate;
- no one likes Tameshi;
- Tameshi destroyed his own clan;
- Midori is not the problem, Tameshi is the problem;
to put unbearable pressure on him, change Midori leader to the one "who will be able to cooperate". With Hono and Aka. Because the ideal Midori leader would be still unable to cooperate with Ki. : D

Aka also played well in last months according to the rule: "always jump to the conflict as the last one and join the victor side". Hm... but who said they won't be attacked first in the next conflict...? *thinks intensively*

Basically it doesn't matter whether this League of Clans/United Clans organisation will be created or not. Because there is no word or promise that cannot be broken. I've seen too many role-played "honourable", "pacifist", "peaceful" and "kind" players and clans in this game. It's similar to real life. League of nations was created in 1920 to prevent next World War, but the next World War happened, even more dreadful. United Nations was created to prevent next war, but many wars happened anyway. There was a Cold War between USA and Soviet Union with many proxy wars and now USA-China similar tensions occur.

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/publ...5ec803e397
Thucydides trap is a geostrategical rule that is stronger than any bond or sympathy for the second country or clan (in game).


---
* examples:
Midori-Aoi alliance -> tensions over Hono fate -> alliance dissolved;
Midori-Hono alliance -> tensions over Hono separate peace -> alliance dissolved;
Aka-Blood Lotus alliance -> BL helped Aka and stabbed Aoi -> Aoi defeated both -> BL became Aoi's ally
Hono-Murakami friendship -> tensions/rivalry over the position of the best player clan -> big tensions between regular players -> effect: semi-unknown for me;
Aoi-BL alliance -> BL calculated Aoi will loose Aoi-Hono war -> BL dealing with Hono -> BL's double agent play -> BL is stabbing Midori -> Midori's morale collapses and asks for permission of separate peace as there's 4 vs 1 fight -> Aoi's 1st faction pretends to doesn't see it (and have bigger problems right now) and 2nd faction (let's call it "Midori haters") doesn't see and enjoys the moment;
Aoi-Ki alliance -> tensions over Hono and Midori fate -> future will show;

---

You will call me a cynic? Well, tbh I'm incorrigible romantic soul who still craves for the world or at least a small community, where the given words are not forgotten after few days.
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09-18-2016, 07:01 AM (This post was last modified: 09-18-2016 07:01 AM by AshuraTakezo.)
Post: #36
RE: War Room Overhauling.
Hell. After all the logic you put to this argue, you deserve your credits as a lawyer.

Still though, there are some huge facts, that you have conplitely missunderstood.

1st off, Chronos insisted that Aka Ryu and Ki Sensu should not be involved. He went through the idea that we might win the battle but los a lot more. But we as Aka Ryu decided that it was unfair for Hono being double teamed so badly.

To explain it once and for all, we considered the options; attacking Aoi, would be the dumbest decision we could make.

We attack Aoi -> Aoi is busy, can't resist -> We win a lot of territories -> We then get beaten badly, since Midori aides Aoi, Aoi is way better then Aka adding Midori's manpower, ugly ending.

Attacking Midori's homeland however, we make a bigger impact, and force Midori to focus more on us amd not just Hono. Ki decided to help us, and BL came out of te while, so it might be an unfair situation, but Midori should consider that they were double teaming Hono using 10 HQs and 2 massive questing forces.

Havung faith in Hono to win, and Aoi to agree to the new system, we would return Midori's homeland, and maybe have some sparring with them there.

Should thr system not be aproved, we WILL continue attacking.

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09-18-2016, 10:19 AM (This post was last modified: 09-18-2016 10:23 AM by Thylakaleo.)
Post: #37
RE: War Room Overhauling.
Bottom line, it isn't about war. It's about peace times, and what we do during them, and keeping things open.

I couldn't care less about war, or being attacked in war room. That's something to do, and something to defend against. And eventually, even if worn to diplos, just gives us something to fight against.

And, also, the point of attacking isn't t gain the system. We attacked midori specifically because of the double team on hono, once that stops, Aka will stop attacking midori, but we'll choose someone else random to attack. Maybe Mura or Aoi, trying to involve a clan that isn't doing anything.

And if they don't want to fight, they'll ignore us while we take a land or two, then go take it back, no harm done. And if they want war, i guess they can attack us and wreck us, (though that wouldn't be ideal) and if they want sparring or anything in between, we can work that out through talks, and another big multiclan battle will take place.

You're making a lot of claims about alliances and systems, and it's the attitudes that need to be changed. We can't change the systems at all until we change our attitudes about the game.

Still interested to hear from Ak90 if he's got the time.

(09-18-2016 06:14 AM)aloshka Wrote:  ---
* examples:
Midori-Aoi alliance -> tensions over Hono fate -> alliance dissolved;
Midori-Hono alliance -> tensions over Hono separate peace -> alliance dissolved;
Aka-Blood Lotus alliance -> BL helped Aka and stabbed Aoi -> Aoi defeated both -> BL became Aoi's ally
Hono-Murakami friendship -> tensions/rivalry over the position of the best player clan -> big tensions between regular players -> effect: semi-unknown for me;
Aoi-BL alliance -> BL calculated Aoi will loose Aoi-Hono war -> BL dealing with Hono -> BL's double agent play -> BL is stabbing Midori -> Midori's morale collapses and asks for permission of separate peace as there's 4 vs 1 fight -> Aoi's 1st faction pretends to doesn't see it (and have bigger problems right now) and 2nd faction (let's call it "Midori haters") doesn't see and enjoys the moment;
Aoi-Ki alliance -> tensions over Hono and Midori fate -> future will show;

---

You will call me a cynic? Well, tbh I'm incorrigible romantic soul who still craves for the world or at least a small community, where the given words are not forgotten after few days.
Just literally, who cares? Yeah, it's what happens for clans to give lands, allainces form and change so we can fight other clans. There are only so many clans in the game, we have to fight one another.

The point is to change our attitude from one of Cold destructive rival, to friendly competitor. Where we don't see attacks as personal, or as backstabbing, but as a new challenge in the war room. Something to do while waiting for the next updates.

Then, we are only fighting on the battlefield, and not outside of that. We can keep things civil, and we wont feel the need to cheat, or to make + break deals, or to do any of the flame crap. We can just fight for the glory and the fun, and let go of this imaginary value we place on War Room Tiles. (Unless you're really that concerned with paying city tolls. In which case, keep a record of the coin, and i'll reimburse you.)

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09-18-2016, 10:35 AM (This post was last modified: 09-18-2016 11:02 AM by aloshka.)
Post: #38
RE: War Room Overhauling.
From regular Aoi player point of view, I admire that dedication. You couldn't care less about Aka war/being attacked/there will be sth to do etc, but because Hono is double fighting, then Midori wil bl quadruple fighting. XD

If I were Midori, then I would pretend I accept your system to let you relish "sth to do fight" little later, at proper occasion.

I will borrow some popcorn from Lady Saskia and observe. Good material to analyse humans behaviour.

PS
Why this "system" couldn't be proposed before Hono attack? And what's the difference between old sparrings/events/arranged limited wars on battle arenas and the newly "proposed" system? (Except resetted alliances of course)
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09-18-2016, 01:31 PM (This post was last modified: 09-18-2016 01:36 PM by Tameshi.)
Post: #39
RE: War Room Overhauling.
This will be a long post.


@Aloshka
You really earn your money.

@Bagda
I remember that you talked about the inactivity in your clan and that you fear that you will lose members.
Last hour,i saw 7 lvl80 members of your clan at the frontlines,not including the other,lower leveled people at the front lines,or the people who have not been at the frontlines.
I cant fully understand your concern because all in all,thats not too bad for a player clan but thats another topic anyway....


Now,to get back to the war,and some things aloshka mentioned:

,,We attacked midori specifically because of the double team on hono, once that stops, Aka will stop attacking midori, but we'll choose someone else random to attack. Maybe Mura or Aoi, trying to involve a clan that isn't doing anything.''

We didnt attack hono for a few days now,since we are busy with BL.
If you want to wait till we agreed to seperated peace,wait.
Or you temporary stop the attacks,your decision.


About,,pretending to agree'':Thats not what i do.
If i agree,i do it with the intent of keeping my word.
But lately,my word appearantly doesnt mean that much anymore,so doubts are to be expected.


Friendly competition:
This is a very important point for me personally.
And if i say,,me personally''im talking about just me,not me as the clan leader.
You can perhaps expect friendly competition from midori later.
I cant speak for the rest of my clan on that matter.
But expecting friendly competition from,,me'' is too much.
This war goes on for around 3 months now(yes,time flys by).
Midori was attacked by 4 clans alltogether(hono,aka,ki and BL) and currently,3 of them are still fighting ONLY midori.
For who knows what reason.....
After i am here to,,cooperate''as you said,i cant understand why 3 clans are still attacking us while no one bothers aoi who is involved in this war just as much as midori.
Over those months,i started to respect ak90 for keeping his word and his cooperation with me,so no,i really dont wish aoi anything bad.
I simply cant understand why midori is blamed for everything.
Not just midori though,its me aswell.
Im allready on edge because i dont get much sleep lately(2 days ago i didnt sleep,then i was sleeping 4 hours,now im still awake and from the looks of it,this night will be a night without sleep for me too,4:31 AM here while im writing this).
Additionally,i was insulted by all kinds of people.
Some provoked,some mocked me,and other simply went for a direct insult.
Now...if you are completely honest to yourself now and leave all behind that happened in this war:I would consider myself as a polite person.
I never was muted,i never even got a warning.
My first approach is a polite discussion.
Still,im human,mistakes happen sometimes(my conversation with BL in the last and the current war for example).
And after getting verbally stabbed from each side in this war,its only natural that my tone changes sometimes aswell.
Some people find it,,funny''to troll me.
They enjoy mocking me because they know im really not a friend of that behavior.
Others know my reactions and take advantage of me,trying to be polite,trying really hard to make me into the villain they want me to be.
Having different ideals,doesnt mean that you cant talk with each other in a respectful way.
Furthermore,words of me have been twisted aswell from time to time.
Blood lotus was not only double teaming us,they have been trippe teaming us and they still do,yet blood lotus gets praised for that while midori and i get blamed for double teaming hono.They do what i did(minus the reason i had)but in a more harmfull way.
That much about double standards....
It also feels that everyone who acts against me or midori gets respect and a imaginary''thumbs up''.
Not because he made a point,simply because he did it.
No one cares that we have limited ressources against BL right now because ki and aka attack tiles where we can spawn,like our castle.
This means we have less people against BL.
Or that we fought for a long time in this war,we are worn out,while BL was not part of the war.
Still,no one cares,people only want to see that midori gets wrecked.
Trough all this:
I try to be polite-i get insulted.
I try to be serious-people mock me.
I try to solve something privately to avoid public shaming(no dirty laundry in public)-people make it public.
I get the feeling that people in this game will just leave me alone when i become the person that they think i am.
I stopped to react to most provocations i receive now,simply because i know that those people dont want arguments,they dont want to hear,,my story''they simply want to trashtalk me or midori.
Some even stated it that bluntly and some are also dedicated enough to do that via pm.


Now......
After all this,attacking me with 3 clans at once,forcing your beliefs on me in the middle of a war without having this meeting first,blaming me for attacking hono(and appearantly,only me)mocking me,insulting me,twisting my words,trolling me because''lol''...

You(the people im talking about,will know it)will not have a friendly battle with me.
You wont have a friendly relation with me.
Midori can have a friendly relation with you and friendly battles,not me though.
You cant build this,,new and friendly''war room on anger,it doesnt work.
Getting made fun of or having less sleep and free time,thats all part of beeign a leader.
But there is a point where i draw the line and decide its enough.
________________________________________________________________________________​___________
Good,now that this point was adressed:


I am still midori kens leader.
What i wrote above,was my personal oppinion about this.
As the leader though,i want to deal with this in a professional way,even if it is really not easy.
I dont have to like any of the clan leaders,as long as i am able to take care of clan business and seperate my personal frustration with the situation,from my responsibility.
We can continue to discuss the possibility of a new war room,im open for that.
We may also be able to end this war and work out plans for a new war room.
But dont think i will simply forget what happened and we can all be happy together and friends after this war.
Im here right now for my clan,not to make friends.
I hope you can respect my decision and way of thinking,it shouldnt stop us from working together on a solution now.



@Leo
Thanks for claryfying that this is allready the meeting we talked about.
In that case,i hope that everyone else involved in this war(along with sohei),shows up soon so we can work out the details.
Every clan should also write down things that he wants to have included in the war room and also,things he will not argue about.
like for example,midori,s homeland.
Thats a point im not going to argue about,i want it back.
As a exchange,we could possibly talk about the tiles midori has taken from hono in the north.

And,ofcourse:Even if i accept this new concept later,this doesnt mean that aoi has to.
Should aoi allow seperated peace and decide to continue the battle by themself,i will not stand in ther way.
But thats something you need to talk with ak90 about aswell.

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09-18-2016, 04:48 PM
Post: #40
RE: War Room Overhauling.
@Tameshi

First of, we as Aka Ryu brought before the council the points we want to be made. And we are going to debate for them. Even if the debate takes months.

Second, the outcome of this council will chose on how we return your homeland. If you insist on the current system.... Well you'll have quite the tough time. Should this ridiculous peace along with the ridiculous ideas be gone though, We will return you your homeland back, without taking anything in return. (I only talk for Aka Ryu. Ki Sensu will talk on their own)

Next point
Tameshi, it's not that we want to make you the bad guy. The one thing we don't like about you, is when you manipulatively argue; which I don't see you doing here. You ignore the main point and go around it.

And to make this detailed
Aka Ryu has started gaining some reliable manpower during the past month. We still can not afford to fight to clans at once, especially considering they're Midori and Aoi, the 2 strongest story clans. So we decided we ease up Hono's work by attacking Midori, the one clan we can afford. Especially considering your homeland; you would have to focus there instead of focusing on Hono. We managed to pull it off. If Midori is feeling way too busy, I will make sure Aka Ryu stops attacking your homeland, however, if we do not like te outcome of this council, we will keep fighting.

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