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PVP mode in War Room
02-23-2016, 06:02 AM
Post: #1
PVP mode in War Room
Everyone knows that active players in war room is very small. They are very, very small, it is a fact, should not deny that.
Most players are limited to passive action, preferring to deploy troops, and do not want attack, but also not want to defend clan territory.
Question arises. Why?

This is a very important question, I long could not answer for him. But now I can say for sure, one of reasons for low activity is an a PVP mode in War Room.
The difference in equip and level of players, often becomes the main reason for low activity low level and poor equip players. If earlier the player fought against the mobs, and this gave him a little advantage, compensating the difference. Now he is deprived of this advantage. I know we can fight with a partner, but it is not advantage. Especially if your partner level 40 and yourself 40 or 60 level, and on you jumping a active player level 80.
You can certainly wait until he spends all movements (30 minutes on average), or he will defeated out of sector. But this is a perversion.

Accordingly PVP mode should be either restrict or even remove from the War Room. For gameplay he does not represent nothing interest, and frankly interferes to players.
Such a conclusion I can make, relying on my experience and observation.
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02-23-2016, 07:41 AM
Post: #2
RE: PVP mode in War Room
Well, i can see where you are coming from in a lot of ways. Level 80 players can make it hard to get past certain areas. But, what ou should try to understand is that that is the whole point of the game. It ties in best with rebirthing.

It's why rebirthing is such a risk/reward program, for being ultimately stronger in the future, but until you can reach level 80 again and be full strength, you wont have as much pull in the war room.\

Also what it lets you do is truly fight in the war room as if it were a war. A lot of people complained about that, and so they changed it. This is why you can now enter a pvp zone on a flag where you can stand there and defend it. It helps tie together the war room and the actual map.

So, while transferring it over to being a pvp zone made some things more difficult, like being low level in the war room, it also added a lot of features as well.

Moving on to the way you started your statement, the game is somewhat small, with limited activity in the war room. While this can contribute to other people not engaging in all the main features of the game, it also, in some ways, disproves your point. Seeing as there is limited activity, low level players have many opportunities to sneak past and still take advantage of the features, as they level up and approach level 80, and can perform better in the war room for their clan.

But, to answer your question. Why?

The main reason i don't attack in the war room most of the time, is that it is time consuming, with a low reward. Once you are something like level 50 or above, you won't gain any experience from it (and the experience you gain before that is very low to begin with)

In addition, the rewards are incredibly meager. 340 troops total. Your best 3 wave bandit is 24 troops. Attacking once in the war room is the equivalent of fighting 14.6 3-wave bandit spawns, but the reward is only randomly generated as if you had fought a single battle. (The 5 silver awarded for making a move is negligible. Should be upped to more in the area of 25. Come on fuedal japan, you aren't fooling me, inflation is everywhere.)

In addition, the fastest it is really reasonable to kill all of them is about 200 seconds (Thanks to the nifty timer, we can gauge it.) It usually takes me about 300 seconds to run through them all, if i dont hit opposition from players. that's about 5 minutes per move, for 6 moves. Thats half an hour of my time in game, with little reward. In a dense town/castle area, i can run through up to 15 merchants in that amount of time.

With a raccoon, i can jump from level 77 to 80 in that time if i try hard (And i've seen people do even better than that.)

In that amount of time, we can run pvp many ninja for a chance at an envy mask.

The point is that, the list goes on and on, so the only real reason to ever attack in war room is to ensure the victory of your clan. You personally get very little from it, and it consumes a large amount of time.

Auto slash in the room can help with that, but with the addition of pvp elements, that is a constant gamble. And you normally have to wait the full 500 seconds in this case, (Just over 8 minutes) and you won't end up making a full impact.

So, low levels don't want to do that, they want to focus on good items and leveling. High levels don't want to waste time attacking if it isn't for a large scale important conflict, and now that we've eliminated a lot of the anger and stress that has gone along with the war room, devolving conflicts into more civil skirmishes, there is less and less of a reason to fight every day.

So, i wholeheartedly agree that SOMETHING needs to change. I think PVP is a nice touch to it, and adds a beautiful level of immersion to the game. But with that change rolling it, it has put a hamper on attacking and defending in the war room. Something about it needs to change. Maybe the reward, or maybe the time it takes to do so, but as of right now, i'm a clan leader, and you have a hard time getting me to attack and defend in the war room. So what does that say about the other players, who haven't played as long, and don't even have that level of commitment?

/rant

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02-23-2016, 11:01 AM (This post was last modified: 02-23-2016 11:24 AM by serpentine_path.)
Post: #3
RE: PVP mode in War Room
At every coin has two sides. For players with a high level in top equipment PVP mode gave many advantages. But imposed on them too much responsibility and huge times. Benefit from ordinary members of clan in this regard has fallen sharply, as Aka leader you must understand what I mean.
At Aka has potential to grown in the part of ordinar members. Sparing Aoi and Aka is showed this, and some moments I even got nervous. But you can not to use its potential, because of fact that you can not maintain the interest of their members to the battles in war room.
I know whereof I speak, all of this I have observed directly. At all clans there was such a problem.

And then is necessary really change something or try to compensate advantages and disadvantages of PVP mode. So that everyone can enjoy battles in WR and not feel completely helpless and useless.
At this moment, some pleasure in WR can be obtained only players level 75-80.

What I can offer.
A radical solution.
Completely remove PVP mode in WR. To be honest, WR prior to the introduction PVP mode more likes for me. It was more tactical possibilities, positional decisions, and fights were generally more dynamic.
A compromise solution.
Enter +/- 5 level of fights. This means that if you are level 20, you can fight in PVP mode only with the players level 15-25. With the real players level 80 the player level 20 should not have encounter in WR.

Also I agree that the reward for battle in WR is so small that from all times is not dropped me anything valuable. WR does not encourage the active and attacking players, except the hero ring, in which need bonus to invest 10 gold for transfer.

What else can I offer, that does not concern PVP, and may cause interest at the players. Dev can enter the competition moment, enter the separate rating, as in the case of duels. The rating will be calculated by the number of defeated mobs real players.
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02-23-2016, 11:31 AM
Post: #4
RE: PVP mode in War Room
It is normal that the stronger player will kill the weaker one. Thats how a war works, nothing wrong with pvp war room.
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02-23-2016, 11:40 AM
Post: #5
RE: PVP mode in War Room
Yeah, but what you said is exactly that. The problem isn't really what they have built, it is more so a lack of a playerbase. Most of what Aka does, we have to handle with 5 or less level 80 players fighting full force. With a fuller playerbase, these problems wouldn't be quite as drastic.

War room to PVP was a good move. It didn't really change anything, except give people more options of ways to fight, and let you truly fight against other players, instead of seeing their bot most of the time. Much more realistic, and better for game immersion.

the +/- idea would be cool, but then without a real playerbase keeping up, it would only complicate matters. You would need to have at least 7 fighters of different level ranges level 5, to take care of levels 1-10. a level 15 for the levels 10-20, so on and so fourth. And all those people would need to stay in that bracket. Otherwise, when you went to fight, you would be able to knock people off of tiles. Unless you could somehow still see their bots, but not see their real self.

Not to mention what a nightmare that would be to code. Instead of having 1 pvp room, you would need 7, to drop every level range player into, and hope they all work and communicate with the server effectively.

The War Hero Ring you don't even get easier by attacking, you get easier by building things. So you can virtually farm them without having to even fight (Which is a massive flaw)

I would like if our rating also included the mobs we've killed, because i have killed enough to rebirth at least 2-3 more times, if i was really leveling that whole time.

I'm sure nico would have loads, even though he is yondon.

But then, people could just sit and farm mobs to up that end of their rating, so i don't know how well it will work.

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02-23-2016, 01:41 PM
Post: #6
RE: PVP mode in War Room
considering hono, a clan packed to the gills with 80s, still couuldent beat a story clan chock fulla level 10-50s (and a few scattered 80s), i dont think its that big a factor in the end.
whoever can deploy the most tends to win, thats likely why its more important that half the clan sit there and deploy.

the PVP war room just gave the player clans a little more of an advantage when it comes to clearing troops, but they still fall dramatically short when it comes to deployment.
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02-23-2016, 08:44 PM
Post: #7
RE: PVP mode in War Room
(02-23-2016 11:31 AM)Yuuta Wrote:  It is normal that the stronger player will kill the weaker one.
Very unexpected. Yuuta you need to identify, you are just a player or clan leader. If you're a player, your position is clear, strong defeat weak, you are strong, others weak. If you're a leader, you should be interested in increasing the activity of their clan. Especially if take into account your conversation with Goldfangdraco when you asked to stop sparring because of low activity your clan. After that offered to resume sparing in the holidays, when there will be more active players.

(02-23-2016 11:40 AM)Thylakaleo Wrote:  Much more realistic, and better for game immersion.
Again, the objective here is to increase the value of private rank players to the clan at all costs, and remove the excessive burden on officers. Private players are now not only attack, but refused to defend the territory of clan.
If we want return to private players in WR, we need to sacrifice something, in this case "realism", otherwise we will continue to complain about the passivity of majority players. Fighting with real player is interesting when you have equal power and you have opportunity defeat him. In this case PVP mode makes sense. In other cases, this turns into a butcher's shop.
And all this realism is reduced to the butcher shop, which very few people are interested.

Add +/- level fights in PVP, will allow private players to prove themselves in WR and bring more tangible benefits to clan. This is obvious if players are not interested, they ignore the fighting in WR, what is the meaning in "realism"?

(02-23-2016 11:40 AM)Thylakaleo Wrote:  Not to mention what a nightmare that would be to code. Instead of having 1 pvp room, you would need 7, to drop every level range player into, and hope they all work and communicate with the server effectively.
Refer to code do not see any sense for a good programmer is not a problem. This is a massively multiplayer online game, developers should be prepared for such problems that you describe.

(02-23-2016 01:41 PM)Azgodeth Wrote:  considering hono, a clan packed to the gills with 80s, still couuldent beat a story clan chock fulla level 10-50s (and a few scattered 80s), i dont think its that big a factor in the end.
Player clans should not beat a story clan, if this happens, this means the game is a big problem with involvement new players. At all Hono problems lie in a completely different plane. Thula has described what burden placed on officers, and few people can withstand this burden.
In addition, they are supported by Midori.
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02-24-2016, 05:24 AM
Post: #8
RE: PVP mode in War Room
(02-23-2016 08:44 PM)serpentine_path Wrote:  
(02-23-2016 01:41 PM)Azgodeth Wrote:  considering hono, a clan packed to the gills with 80s, still couuldent beat a story clan chock fulla level 10-50s (and a few scattered 80s), i dont think its that big a factor in the end.
Player clans should not beat a story clan, if this happens, this means the game is a big problem with involvement new players. At all Hono problems lie in a completely different plane. Thula has described what burden placed on officers, and few people can withstand this burden.
In addition, they are supported by Midori.

so your saying there is no point in making a player clan, you'll just get stomped so dont bother. you realize for most players, this is a bigger problem then being able to fight in the war room?
there is no "other plane" the attack/deploment issues are the heart of the war room. (and really, all the war room consists of.)

also, check your history. hono was never supported by midori. (they were allied, but midori never actually helped in any way. in fact if you talk to the leader, he claims he never even agreed to ally..)
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02-24-2016, 05:56 AM
Post: #9
RE: PVP mode in War Room
Hono certainly managed to overcome aka with not a lot of trouble. So i don't think i agree with you there Azgo.

The meaning of the realism is to, 1) increase immersion into the game world. Which, as long as people actually get involved, works great. We don't really have a player base to keep it up with, so it makes things a little more tricky.

The reason that the clans are currently passive, is because the last time there was true, full scale war, everyone basically lost their minds, developed resentment, and quit the game. So we're trying to change things, so we stop hemorrhaging players. But no matter what, someone is going to be upset. So, the smartest thing for the developers to do is to appeal to wherever most of their money comes from.

As far as the coding aspect goes, you should realize the main bulk of SHSD staff isn't much into coding, they're more art and gameplay focused. They have a limited team already, and with trying to roll out all the current updates, a coding nightmare isn't going to be something they will work on anytime soon. But, if the solution is simple enough to implement, we may have a better chance of seeing it, and we will be much less likely to have bugs.

Just because developers are expected to code, doesn't make them superheroes.

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02-24-2016, 06:26 AM (This post was last modified: 02-24-2016 06:28 AM by Killrog.)
Post: #10
RE: PVP mode in War Room
(02-24-2016 05:24 AM)Azgodeth Wrote:  
(02-23-2016 08:44 PM)serpentine_path Wrote:  
(02-23-2016 01:41 PM)Azgodeth Wrote:  considering hono, a clan packed to the gills with 80s, still couuldent beat a story clan chock fulla level 10-50s (and a few scattered 80s), i dont think its that big a factor in the end.
Player clans should not beat a story clan, if this happens, this means the game is a big problem with involvement new players. At all Hono problems lie in a completely different plane. Thula has described what burden placed on officers, and few people can withstand this burden.
In addition, they are supported by Midori.

so your saying there is no point in making a player clan, you'll just get stomped so dont bother. you realize for most players, this is a bigger problem then being able to fight in the war room?
there is no "other plane" the attack/deploment issues are the heart of the war room. (and really, all the war room consists of.)

also, check your history. hono was never supported by midori. (they were allied, but midori never actually helped in any way. in fact if you talk to the leader, he claims he never even agreed to ally..)

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That's not well to lie Azgo. We went to war exclusively because of our alliance with Hono, and we took a beating, hard, only because Tameshi, "our leader" as you put it, thought that his word to Chronos was not to be broken and this was our clan's honor to stand next to our ally until the end, and don't even try to tell me I'm wrong, I personnally argued with him for months over this specific issue...

The only reason why Hono could progress is because Ki sensu was busy hitting us with everything they got, so please, if you want to tell fairy tales tell them where there aren't people who actually "lived" said stories. And that last sentence is so ludicrous I don't even know where to begin, Tameshi not only claimed we were allied, he was proud of it.

That said, we're no longer allies, but only due to Hono's double crossing us before the war ended. We got dragged into this shit to fight by your side, and when we got bloodied, you turned your back on us, that sole fact should be a reason good enough for you to keep a low profile when talking about us.
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